Thanks so so much to Rowan Smith for this interview! The MacGuffins were an amazing Melbourne band from the late 80s, and I’ve been a fan since the first time I heard two songs of them almost a decade ago. I wrote a post about them of course, and about the songs “Rich Together” and “Dirty Ol Life”. These two songs were released as a 7″ and I thought for a long time these were the only recordings they did. But no, that’s not the case. There’s more! So here comes some very good news, we are working now on a Cloudberry Cake Kitchen compilation to be released next year! Very exciting. And of course, you want to know more about the MacGuffins, sit back and enjoy this interview. Let Rowan tell you the story here!
++ Hi Rowan! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Still making music?
Hi Roque, thank you for this opportunity. I’m doing well and yes, still making music. Working away on what will be my seventh album.
++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what was your first instrument? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen at home while growing up?
My father was a gifted pianist who played ‘by ear’, meaning he could hear a tune and play it without any written music. When I was an infant, he’d sit me on his knee at the piano, with my small hands on top of his. I learned music this way. It was a gift he passed on to me that I cherish, also as he died all too soon when I was seven years old. But from that beginning, I could play music ‘by ear’. I still own and play my father’s piano.
My family were church-going folk and hymns and gospel music was what I was exposed to early on. Also where I first saw a drum kit, which was ‘instant love’. Turned out my father’s brother was a drummer and together they’d been quite the band in their time. He taught me his chops. Picking up my sister’s acoustic guitar came quite naturally. We were a very musical family in all, with a devoted mother, who after my father died became even more involved with running the church youth group my parents had nurtured together. At one point Mum even hired an Air Force concert band member to write charts and be our conductor. Hugh led our little youth band once a week, with rehearsals in our lounge room. My sisters Glenda on trumpet, Lynette on clarinet and other members on trumpet and clarinet trombone, flute, and me up the back (the younger brother) on a little red drum kit which was my first treasured instrument. It was quite old and my eldest sister Roselyn’s boyfriend (husband now) had helped paint this kit secretly in the shed, ahead of my ninth birthday.
The first ‘secular music’ I really remember hearing was when a Grade Four teacher invited us to, “Rest your head on your desk, class. I’m going to play you a record called ‘Journey to the Centre of the Earth’, by Rick Wakeman.” Hearing this just blew my mind!
++ Had you been in other bands before the MacGuffins? What about the rest of the members? If so, how did all of these bands sound like? Are there any recordings?
Underground Lovers’ Glenn Bennie and Vince Giarusso attended the same high school as I did. Glenn and I became good friends following high school and during our first years of university; Glenn at Melbourne Uni studying Drama and myself at Swinburne studying Graphic Design. We started jamming together on weekends, Glenn playing guitar and me on drums. Then Glenn put together our first band with Vince, singing. We were called Wildworld. Cesare Bertuzzi was on drums and I was playing keyboard. Our first gigs were at house parties which went well and soon we were playing some of the music pubs on Brunswick Street, Melbourne.
At some point I wanted to express more than this role, and started to explore writing my own songs.
Michael Wilkins and Michael Paxton were in a band together before MacGuffins; I can’t remember the name – and more on that later.
++ Where were you from originally?
We were all from Melbourne, Australia.
++ How was Melbourne at the time of MacGuffins? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?
The Melbourne music scene in the late eighties and early nineties was absolutely vibrant, especially for independent music, earning the ‘music city’ reputation that lives on today. Pubs and clubs with bands playing every night of the week stretched from Brunswick and Collingwood to Richmond and St Kilda. There were many great Melbourne bands and artists, some already quite famous such as Hunters and Collectors, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Paul Kelly, Joe Camilleri and the Black Sorrows, Stephen Cummings… Glenn Bennie introduced me to Essendon Airport, members of which went on to form, I’m Talking.
MacGuffins’ peers were bands such as Sea Stories, The Killjoys, Ripe, Captain Cocoa; we played together often.
Naturally, there were many great record stores too, and still are. The ones I frequented most were Gaslight, Mighty Music Machine, Readings and Greville Records.
++ When and how did the band start? How did you all meet? How was the recruiting process?
Through peripheral circles I’d learned about a fantastic rhythm section across town, Michael Wilkins and Michael Paxton (on drums and bass respectively) that as word had it, might have been interested in forming a new band. I met up with them semi-secretly after one of their band rehearsals. I remember arriving early at the rendezvous point and sitting outside the hall listening to the drums and bass coming through the solid brick walls and thinking, “These guys are really good!” I ultimately played them a couple of my rough demos recorded into a Fostex X-15 Multitracker I’d purchased; I had a little Korg Poly-800 keyboard, recorded my guitar in ‘DI’ and vocal ideas. To their credit and my surprise they agreed to start rehearsing as a new band.
++ Were there any lineup changes?
Philippa Nihill was a friend of Michael Wilkins from university and joined the band as backing singer and keyboard. When Philippa left the group, Gina Hearnden (playing with Billy Baxter and the Hollowmen at the time) joined us for our tour of Sydney, along with Neil Brennan playing keys and extra vocals. Lastly, Kim Hellier joined for a while, again for backing vocals and keyboard. Philippa of course went on to join Underground Lovers.
++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?
Once MacGuffins got underway I was writing songs all the time. The feeling of firstly playing together as we rehearsed, then to an appreciative and growing audience was simply infectious; so I was writing prolifically and when something felt presentable-enough to me, I’d take this idea along and we would road test it together at rehearsals – once a week and twice or more towards a show. We were very hard working, rehearsing and working on the songs. It was a really tight bond.
There were some great rehearsal rooms across Melbourne. We were mainly between either the Jam Hut in Preston (we also did some recording in a studio there) and another great room called Troy’s in South Melbourne. Troy’s had three large rooms and often one of these would be locked out for a week or two with a big band preparing for a tour. I recall Crowded House was there and I think Midnight Oil another time. We were regulars at both these rehearsal studios and they were great times. We’d set up and run through the songs or go round on a new idea if it seemed to be working. We’d take a break midway through the session and go out for pizza and the odd video game, then return and nail what we’d been working on before. One crazy story, late one night in winter and we were leaning against Michael Paxton’s Holden Kingswood station-wagon having a final cigarette and chat. It was after midnight and frost has covered all of Michael’s windscreen and windows – so that we hadn’t seen the figure inside the car who suddenly tried to turn over the engine. The car lurched forward a little with the three of us leaning with our backs against it. This surprised us as much as we did the would-be thief, who, clearly stoned, must have dozed off at the wheel having broken into the car and now trying to somehow make off in it. The culprit then fell out of the driver’s door onto the cobblestone alleyway, lurched up and was gone into the night. Having momentarily stood back to assess the situation – expletives flying – we checked over Michael’s car which was otherwise ok.
++ What’s the story behind the band’s name?
Film student Michael Wilkins gave us the fantastic name, MacGuffins. He knew it from Alfred Hitchcock’s description of a plot device that the filmmaker loved for building suspense in a movie; an adjunct thread to the main story. Hitchcock once said, “A MacGuffin is a trap for catching lions in Scotland.” Angus McPhail, the British screenwriter who worked with Hitchcock is credited with coining the word. Our only instrumental in the set, Angus, was named in his honour.
++ And who would you say were influences in the sound of the band?
There were comparisons with the Go Betweens and The Smiths and both were big influences, definitely. Also that first Crowded House album was a favourite in the years before we formed. A Sydney review of the ‘Rich Together’ single mentioned Prefab Sprout, which I had to look up. I was also really into Orange Juice after Glenn Bennie had introduced me. Having found the love and platform for songwriting I was also listening a lot in those days to Bob Dylan, and I remember hearing Leonard Cohen’s, ‘Tower of Song’ late one night on radio and the next day purchasing the album, ‘I’m your Man’. Like many, LC has been a favourite of mine ever since. In those years, for me it was a crash course in these and songwriter artists like Lou Reed, Elvis Costello, Brian Wilson’s ‘Love & Mercy’ album and (Beach Boys) ‘Pet Sounds’; Willie Nelson (‘Stardust’ remains my favourite all-time album); Johnny Cash; Peter Gabriel; Kirsty MacColl’s, ‘Kite’ was another that wore out the repeat button on my CD player, as did Suzanne Vega’s debut album. Michael Wilkins introduced us to XTC’s Oranges and Lemons (more oranges). And Glenn kept introducing me to other new music. Thomas Dolby, early Split Enz, OMD, The Reels, Los Lobos… he was always playing me new things.
++ Your first demo caught some attention like the one of Rondor Music (Universal) and manager Linda Gebar who helped you bill many good gigs in Melbourne. Was wondering about this demo tape. What songs were on it? When and where was it recorded?
We made three really good quality demo tapes, released at gigs on cassette.
The first, in 1987 and which I don’t have anymore (but hope there’s a copy out there somewhere) contained three tracks, ‘Down on the ground’, ‘A skip in your step’ and ‘Red Bouquet’.
The second cassette listing was, ‘A Simple Arrangement’, ‘Rhyme about Reason, ‘Men and Women’ and ‘Earnest’. This was the demo that Linda Gebar circulated, getting us on the bill around Melbourne. And that Michael Wilkins mailed to a few places and that Graham Thompson at Rondor heard, subsequently wanting to sign us.
The third cassette in 1989 contained, ‘Maybe not Tonight’, ‘Italian Wedding’, ‘Rich Together’, ‘Angry Words’, ‘I can’t stop my heart’ and ‘Relying on your love’. This tape was put together to shop around labels and ultimately signaled the ‘waiting’ period where we were listening to advice from Graham (at music publisher, Rondor) and also from a music lawyer, which I’ll explain later on.
Tapes One and Two were recorded at Michael Wilkins’ house in Collingwood, each time over a long weekend. Michael and Michael were great engineers and really knowledgeable about what gear to hire, which microphones to place where and so on, not to mention the recording and bouncing down process. We’d hire a Tascam or Fostex tape machine and set everything up at Michael’s house on Saturday, play everything through and record on the Sunday, and mix and bounce down on Monday. As was noted recently about the surprising quality of these cassette tapes, “Of course, it’s all been recorded on analogue tape!”
Linda Gebar, our first manager, saw us at an RMIT Battle of the Bands and approached us afterwards. It was our first gig.
++ You only released one 7″ in your time, the amazing “Rich Together” single. And of course I have a few questions about it! First, where was the photo from the front cover taken?
The photo was taken by a professional photographer friend of mine, Gary Moore who had the studio, the backdrop, the lighting. Thanks Gary!
++ This single came out on a label I’ve never heard before. Who were DEX? How was your relationship with them?
Dex were (and still are) a Melbourne-based production and distribution house, not a label and so a great option while we were waiting for something to happen between the conversations with Graham Thompson at Rondor Music Publishing in Sydney and Melbourne music lawyer, Phil Dwyer. Graham wanted to sign us, and Phil was advising to wait until he got us a record deal. In that space we self-financed the single and Dex were great with distributing it.
++ On it you got Glenn Bennie from the Underground Lovers to play guitar. What did he bring to the table and had you collaborated with him in other occasions?
Glenn brought along his signature guitar sound – and any song is better for that. We were and still are great friends. Also I can’t really play lead, or even rock really! My playing was described as jangly guitar, also ‘warm and fuzzy’. Glenn also guested with us on stage at the Melbourne Music Day at the showgrounds in 1988. This was the forerunner to the Big Day Out which came next.
++ Both songs on the 7″ were recorded at Sing Sing in 1988. How was that experience? How long did it take? Did it go smoothly? Any anecdotes you could share?
We’d probably booked it for as cheap we could. Two days, two songs. Some Hammond overdubs on the B-side, as Sing Sing had an awesome Hammond B3 organ and Leslie cabinet. It was a great experience together as a band and then fun having Glenn come in. Actually the other thing I remember, Michael’s Wilkins and Paxton both smoked rollies (rolled up cigarettes) every chance, whereas I’d never touched a cigarette in my life before hanging around rehearsal rooms and studios with these two smoking constantly. Now suddenly I’m on the Red pack Stuyvesant’s! (I was able to give them up a couple of years’ later.)
++ And how come there were no more releases? Why no album?
Michael Paxton quit the band. That was it. One day he announced he was sick of waiting. Never occurred to continue without him; in fact it would have just felt impossible at the time because he and Michael Wilkins were inseparable anyhow.
++ Though I saw now that there were many recordings that are now available on the web in two volumes of “lost tapes”. Were they really lost? And where do these songs come from? Different demo tapes?
They were lost to me. I’d thrown everything away. True Story.
I’d moved interstate to Hobart after the end of my second band, Barefoot and recording of my first solo album too. I was in need of a fresh start for many reasons. And with a new young family as well, I was headed in a new direction.
We’ve talked earlier about Glenn Bennie and I being great friends? Well, in his generous and always unassuming way, Glenn had posted me a copy of the Underground Lovers fourth and seminal album, Rushall Station. I can vividly remember hearing that record for the first time. I was in our living room in Hobart. In the corner of the room was a really nice Ludwig drum kit – that hadn’t been played in quite some time. (I’d been lucky to purchase this from I’m Talking’s drummer, Cameron Newman, before leaving Melbourne. Cameron initially loaned me the kit for making my solo album but when it came time to return it, he offered it for sale.)
This had been a dream kit for me, a Ludwig! But now it sat there, shipped interstate but not played for many months; symbolic to me of the music I wasn’t creating or playing.
And of course Rushall Station is such an incredible record. (Recently re-released and widely celebrated on vinyl.) So I was in the audio aura of that record. Perhaps understandably, or not, I felt like ‘Mozart’s Salieri’, comparing myself to my high school buddy. No, buddies.
Shortly afterwards I sold the drum kit, had a big cleanout and along with other remnants from the move, the MacGuffins tapes ended up on the South Hobart tip.
Fast forward through a lifetime now in Tasmania, wonderful adult children, a further three solo albums under my belt, and a conversation last May on my front porch. With Glenn Bennie.
“Can I ask your advice, Glenn? I mean, I’m tinkering away in the (home) studio, and it never leaves you does it… but I’m at the point where working away on the next Rowan Smith release just feels a bit, well, pointless. What would you do if you were me?”
Glenn said, “I think you should look back at MacGuffins. You guys were great and part of the scene and I think you might be surprised who’d be interested.”
So I did. And the second person to be interested, was me. It was so strange, hearing MacGuffins objectively after all this time. I thought, “We really had something!”
So I have Glenn to thank for the MacGuffins catalogue now being online, and ultimately available for this amazing CD compilation, thank you, Roque.
And because these tapes – which have now been remastered and digitised – are courtesy of my mother and sisters having kept copies – thank you to my family.
Tape One is, for now, still lost. But I’ll take two out of three! These tapes, including many other tracks which ultimately didn’t make the cassette listings are the two volumes now available as ‘The Lost Tapes’ Volumes 1 and 2.
++ Are there more recordings by the band? Unreleased songs?
Just Tape One. If anyone out there has it, or knows someone who might do? Please let us know and I’d be very grateful.
++ I think my favourite song of yours might as well be “Rich Together”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?
Phew! I’m glad that’s on vinyl, then 🙂 I love cafes. I love walking into a cafe, taking in the vibe and sitting back. I love the ambience. I’m addicted to coffee. I love the cacophony of sounds, music playing, the drone of multiple conversations. ‘People watching’ too, I guess. With regards to the song, things like the ‘magazine stand’, and ‘the ring where my coffee had been, it was fading into the laminex’ would have come through observations in real time. And then I’m an eternal romantic so there would have been a yearning or a question or a happiness with my lot in love at the time. And the preoccupation with having or not having any money – I’ve worked for myself now forever. At that time I loved reading about the post-impressionist painters. Their attitude, struggles and (when it came) celebrations, I found so visceral. So perhaps this sums up being ‘Rich Together’.
++ If you were to choose your favorite MacGuffins song, which one would that be and why?
At the moment there are two. ‘Men and Women’ because it really captures the essence of what MacGuffins was about; Paxton’s growling bass, Wilkins’ big steady time and hits, Philippa’s drone note keyboard and my jangly guitar and warbling about over the top. This was one of those ‘Go Betweens’ comparisons but an esteemed compliment really and also conjures place and time, now.
The other is ‘Angry Words’ (aka ‘If I could only afford what you want’ – another money theme!). I think this one is the closest to rock, or is it blues, that we get – and gives a hint as to why we went over well, live.
++ Your first gig was at a “Battle of the Bands” competition. How did that work out? Is it more stressful to play a competition gig compared to a “regular” gig?
It was our first outing live. So yes, lots of nerves and I spent my lunch hour that day walking around a Melbourne park singing the songs out loud to myself, to get used to the idea and also being so worried I’d forget the words. Actually, because the night was so well run by RMIT (the university), with great production, P.A. and fold back wedges and so on – also the fact we were so tight from months of rehearsing – the playing was really great fun. We placed second, to Ripe. But we met the best manager in Linda Gebar.
++ What about other gigs that you remember? Did you play many?
We ended up playing relatively a lot over our four years together. A standout was our residency at the Evelyn Hotel in Brunswick Street. It was one of the best gigs in town and we had Friday nights – for a month! The line to get in got longer down the street each week, and the room was packed. It was the best.
++ And what were the best gigs you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?
There’s many great recollections. A New Year’s Eve at The Tote. We played this night with a band called Young Dub. They were amazing and I really thought they’d go places, but can’t find anything about them now. Underground Lovers played their first gig with us at the Corner Hotel. And Frente played a very early show with us at the Cricketers Arms. There’s a great review of a double bill we played with Sea Stories at the Queens Arms Hotel. They were a great band and the most lovely people. We played a few shows with them – I think that might have been Linda managing us both.
++ And were there any bad ones?
I did use alcohol a bit back then; Dutch courage. One night at the Evelyn I fell backwards into the drum kit.
++ When and why did MacGuffins stop making music? You were involved in Barefoot afterwards, right? How different would you say were these bands?
After Michael Paxton quit, ending the band, I had a long talk with Graham Thompson at Rondor. Graham had wanted to sign me for publishing all along; he remains one of my biggest fans and a friend today. Graham’s commitment was still there. I signed with Rondor and Graham produced some early demos in Sydney and our first EP in Melbourne featuring luminary musicians Peter Luscomb, Bruce Haymes, Michel Rose, Ben Butler and Mark Punch.
I also went about advertising for a new live band. Aside from Kim, who stayed on, first to join what became the band, Barefoot, was guitarist Tim Prince. Tim had answered my ad and attended the day of auditions I’d set up at Troy rehearsal studio. He’d previously been playing and touring with Archie Roach. Tim soon became my good friend and wingman in everything Barefoot, including managing the tours. Barefoot ended up a six piece and we had some great times, including an east coast tour of Australia as our single, ‘Baby you got in the way’ made the Triple j Hottest 100 in 1993, on high rotation that summer. Journalist Jeff Jenkins was travelling with us for part of that tour. One night as we left the Sydney hotel and piled into the minivan for the gig, Russell Jeffrey, our drummer was driving and as soon as he turned the ignition we heard the first bars of ‘Baby’ on the radio. Jeff commented, “It doesn’t get any better than this.”
Other Barefoot members were, Steve Lindsay (keyboards) and Mark Bernsons (bass). Towards this line up, Pete Poumbourios and Rosie Westbrook had also played bass and Sean Condon, drums.
++ And had you been in other bands too?
Just Wildworld, as mentioned earlier. (And earlier, that concert band!) In 2010 I was honoured to play a part in Glenn’s live band for the third GB3 album, Damaged/Controlled GBS/Steve Kilbey. This ‘supergroup’ was Glenn Bennie and Maurice Argiro (Underground Lovers) guitar and bass respectively, Steve Kilbey (The Church) vocals, Philippa Nihill (Underground Lovers) vocals, Ricky Maymi (The Brian Jonestown Massacre) guitar, Robert Tickner (Conway Savage) guitar and melodica, Andrew Nunns (The black Heart Death Cult/USER) drums, and myself on keyboards.
++ What about the rest of the band, had they been in other bands afterwards?
Michael Wilkins went on to some other bands. Michael Paxton didn’t play in any other bands. And of course Philippa is a star now, in the Underground Lovers.
++ Has there been any MacGuffins reunions?
There hasn’t been any conversation for that in the past. But I am open to it happening. I’m just glad firstly – and very recently – being back in touch with both Michael Wilkins and Michael Paxton. They’ve loved hearing the songs again and seeing the material online. Philippa and I have been friends since MacGuffins, and Pip was a very special guest on both my album project Sirens in 2009 and then its debut performance during the Tasmanian Festival of Voices, in 2013.
++ Did you get much attention from the radio?
The ‘Rich Together’ single was very well supported by independent radio in Melbourne (3RRR and 3PBS) and Sydney (Triple j). Also some of the songs off the cassette tapes were played during various interviews and so on. It’s been great to hear MacGuffins on air again recently as the tapes are being released digitally and there’s new interest for the band.
++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?
Yes, there were some very supportive reviews of our live shows and single reviews.
++ What about from fanzines?
I think these came later – and by then we were disbanded. I certainly moved on; firstly totally focused on Barefoot and the Rondor Publishing years, and later my solo projects which have generally taken several years each time.
++ Looking back in retrospective, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?
It might just be mid 1989 when things were really taking off. We were incredibly tight together as a band, on-stage and off. The Evelyn Hotel in Brunswick Street, Melbourne, was one of the happening venues – and on Friday night the room was absolutely packed. And we were given a month’s residency; there was a line up the street to get in.
++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?
I have always juggled my passion for music and bands with a job in communication design. So it’s ‘bands and brands’ a lot of my time, as I’ve also worked for myself for many years. My other passions are St Kilda Football Club (Australian Rules) and swimming laps which keeps me physically and mentally grounded. I also love movies and any time spent with my partner Rachel, and my grown, son and daughter – they’re both so awesome.
++ Never been to Melbourne, nor to Australia. So I will ask for some recommendations. If I was to visit your city what shouldn’t I miss? What are your favourite sights? And any particular food or drinks that you think one shouldn’t miss?
I’d say land in Melbourne then come visit me in Hobart, Tasmania; the little island underneath the mainland of Australia. Having been lucky-enough to come to New York in the past, I’ve since said my ideal would be time spent between the ‘Big Apple’ of New York and ‘little apple’ of Tasmania. Here we have a very livable capital city of only 350,000 people, set in the midst of wilderness and that has taken off culturally over the past decade to now being the envy of other mainland states. Or come in winter and we’ll meet in Melbourne and go to an Australian Rules football game. In Australia we’ll argue forever whether the cultural hub is Melbourne or Sydney (bit like an East Coast, West Coast rivalry?). Food-wise, other than Vegemite which I still think holds a fascination abroad, food has become food everywhere hasn’t it? But here (if you like seafood) we will serve you ‘prawns’ not ‘shrimp’, if we’re really lucky ‘crayfish’, not ‘lobster’ and certainly in Tasmania we do have some of the best fresh produce in the world. And if you’re game we’ll serve you kangaroo or wallaby; these are simply leaner red meats than beef or lamb; plenty of those on the menu too. And Australian beers and world-renowned wines are always worth your sampling.
++ Anything else you’d like to add?
Thank you Roque, for these great questions allowing me to further reflect and share about the MacGuffins. And for producing this CD compilation! It’s been the best thing discovering new fans of the band all these years later. I’m very grateful.
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Listen
Macguffins – Rich Together
